NoWaistedSpace
I'm Hoarding Skunk
Ok members, watch and learn real science from the man!
Real Science with Dr. Bruce Bugby
- Thread starter NoWaistedSpace
- Start date
H.A.F.
a.k.a. Rusty Nails
Notes while watching:
Challenges of organic fertilizers mentioned do not apply to a home grow, especially inside. None of us have composted manure run-off polluting anything. There is ZERO environmental consequence to what I feed in my closet/tent unless I have run-off, then I dump that in the toilet.
Lighting companies - and nute companies - can both fund and giude his research. Has the dude ever grown weed?
We fed all those people on the planet - while turning their soil into a black hole that requires continuous use of our product. All because they needed something to do with industrial quantities of Nitrogen no longer needed for making bombs in 1946.
Lower yields with organics, but talk nutrient density. They measured a carrot grown organically and one grown with nutes. The nutes one was plumper, more colorful, etc. And had one 1/10th the nutrient density of the organic carrot. Simple translation, you would need to eat 10 nute carrots to get the same nutrition as that from one organic carrot.
Side note - all data can be skewed and directed to back up your theory. Measuring some things and not others is an easy way.
"No evidence to support it" means no one has funded that research yet. "Precision stress" means he's digging into bro science. Ice baths, stem splitting etc. Has the dude ever grown weed?
No, synthetics don't "kill" microbes. They do the job for them and the microbes retire and do nothing. period.
Stopping because it is nothing but a "hey, organic is not great and here's why" sermon. When my also-college-educated novice mind can pick apart your talking points, you ain't there yet - you're selling something for someone. Dude should be a politician.
Challenges of organic fertilizers mentioned do not apply to a home grow, especially inside. None of us have composted manure run-off polluting anything. There is ZERO environmental consequence to what I feed in my closet/tent unless I have run-off, then I dump that in the toilet.
Lighting companies - and nute companies - can both fund and giude his research. Has the dude ever grown weed?
We fed all those people on the planet - while turning their soil into a black hole that requires continuous use of our product. All because they needed something to do with industrial quantities of Nitrogen no longer needed for making bombs in 1946.
Lower yields with organics, but talk nutrient density. They measured a carrot grown organically and one grown with nutes. The nutes one was plumper, more colorful, etc. And had one 1/10th the nutrient density of the organic carrot. Simple translation, you would need to eat 10 nute carrots to get the same nutrition as that from one organic carrot.
Side note - all data can be skewed and directed to back up your theory. Measuring some things and not others is an easy way.
"No evidence to support it" means no one has funded that research yet. "Precision stress" means he's digging into bro science. Ice baths, stem splitting etc. Has the dude ever grown weed?
No, synthetics don't "kill" microbes. They do the job for them and the microbes retire and do nothing. period.
Stopping because it is nothing but a "hey, organic is not great and here's why" sermon. When my also-college-educated novice mind can pick apart your talking points, you ain't there yet - you're selling something for someone. Dude should be a politician.
Slowdrawl
PICK YOUR OWN
That was a great video, very informative for me...Thx
NoWaistedSpace
I'm Hoarding Skunk
He knows his shit about this stuff. He is one of the most knowledgeable in plant photosynthesis and how light spectrums affect plants. You might not agree with everything he says, but I agree with majority of what he says. I think he said they were running 45 growth chambers.
At 21 min. I understood what he said and he is correct. Compost is feeding the microbes, not the plant.
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H.A.F.
a.k.a. Rusty Nails
Right - but the entire process of living soil is feeding the microbes. You don't feed the plants. EVER. yet they grow. Feeding the microbes IS the ballgame. Discounting that simple fact - or glossing over it to prove some other point is when I knew he had an agenda of some sort - or wasn't as smart as he thinks he is.
H.A.F.
a.k.a. Rusty Nails
In other words, he doesn't grasp the soil-food web.
On one side of his mouth he says about the compost
"That will stimulate microbial activity"
Then out the other side he says
"Now whether that also stimulates plant growth is another matter" - to him. Not to the entire conversation.
In living soil feeding the microbes feeds the plants - period. Exudates from the plants communicate with the microbes to get the food they need right then, not what the guy dumping nutes in says they need to eat. Nutes break that chain of communication and make you the chef feeding the plant.
If you are feeding "part A" and "part B" (et.al.) your soil microbes are not doing much of anything. You are running the show- better not fuck up because your roots are getting whatever prison food you deem necessary right now. Mine have a full fridge or buffet in the soil and they can eat whatever they want, whenever they want.
The compost and stuff renews that carbon energy needed to energize the system.
On one side of his mouth he says about the compost
"That will stimulate microbial activity"
Then out the other side he says
"Now whether that also stimulates plant growth is another matter" - to him. Not to the entire conversation.
In living soil feeding the microbes feeds the plants - period. Exudates from the plants communicate with the microbes to get the food they need right then, not what the guy dumping nutes in says they need to eat. Nutes break that chain of communication and make you the chef feeding the plant.
If you are feeding "part A" and "part B" (et.al.) your soil microbes are not doing much of anything. You are running the show- better not fuck up because your roots are getting whatever prison food you deem necessary right now. Mine have a full fridge or buffet in the soil and they can eat whatever they want, whenever they want.
The compost and stuff renews that carbon energy needed to energize the system.
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NoWaistedSpace
I'm Hoarding Skunk
If there wasn't any microbes in the compost, it wouldn't be able to feed the plant.
I took it he was explaining between ready to be absorbed chemicals/nutrients and the role the microbes play in an organic garden.
You should have watched the rest. He is a wealth of knowledge.
H.A.F.
a.k.a. Rusty Nails
Sorry, but when you try to steer the conversation in one direction and make statements that are obviously dismissive of facts, I don't care what else you say. It might sound good to me and also be full of shit.
PadawanWarrior
Banned
And too much P will fuck shit up regardless if it's organic or salts. I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid.
PadawanWarrior
Banned
I'll be giving my plants plain water tonight and letting the microbes do their work.
NoWaistedSpace
I'm Hoarding Skunk
Hell, I ain't trying to steer anything. Your living soil is only good as long as your "microbe balance" is in correct ratios, and the right microbes are there to start with.
You'll find out one day when they get way out of balance or somehow you get invasions of critters you don't know are in there and everything starts going to shit and you have to toss all of it away and start from scratch. I know you guys are on top of the organics, it's great when it's great.
When it's not, it's a major "dick punch".
You'll find out one day when they get way out of balance or somehow you get invasions of critters you don't know are in there and everything starts going to shit and you have to toss all of it away and start from scratch. I know you guys are on top of the organics, it's great when it's great.
When it's not, it's a major "dick punch".
m4s73r
The Laziest
So I am going to do a break down as I watch. I have followed Dr. Bugbee for years. When it comes to environment, he is outstanding. I cant say I would go to him for regenerative soil building/permaculture. Id prolly refer to Dr. Ingham and her teaching on the Soil Food Web.
So our first section he's talking about composted manure and phosphorus. He's right. You run any soil test on organics that has been heavily amended with composted animal manure you will find it high in phosphorus. This is why I do not run a worm bin or use animal products in general and instead using green manures like clover. He then goes on to say that adding nutrients to soil is hard on the environment. He's not wrong in this. Some places dont harvest their peat moss correctly messing up peat bogs. Mining minerals out the earth requires equipment that isnt exactly environmental friendly. Its not a wrong statement just one that has Far reaching implications. IE dumping large volumes of organic amendments on top of soil. Or mixing way more than you need in "super soils". This is why you will see lots of organic guys saying "less is more". Application rates are normally way higher then needed. Even with Synthetics. This is why all the hydro guys and bottle guys will tell you to start at quarter or even 1/8th strength.
He is spot on with the next section of misinformation of synthetic nutrients. I run a very clean organic beds. But if it ever came up and for some reason i need some quick nitrogen, I wouldn't shy away one bit at using a good quality "veg" nutrient at a very lose dose. Or if i out grew my container and needed to use some sythetic nutrients at the end. Its not going to "nuke" your microbes.
Organics are better terps imo cause the soil is a good buffer for all nutrients. Its hard to quantify. Hes not wrong. Especially when were talking about cultivars that are not stable. You would need to grow the exact same plant for years to learn exactly how to stress it to get the terpene profiles. And that's once you got stable genetics.
Compost teas fall into this as well. No real provable scientific data on how well they work or if they do.
When hes talking about precision stress he's dead on. Stress cause a protection response from the plant. Now I wouldn't do any of the bro science ive heard on this (stem stripping or nail through the stalk). As far as im concerned the best way to cause this precision stress is through UVB. But even that has not proven out or is Cultivar spacific. I want to try it out. I plan on getting a couple of UVBs to throw above my beds.
Synthetic nutrients over 2000 PPM that are very high in sodium can have a impact on microbes. Chances are you will kill your plant before you kill the microbes. When he says to use sugar and put it on the top the microbes will go nuts. Use molasses.
Soilless vs soil. Both of my beds are soilless pots. I use peat moss, perlite, vermiculite, and compost. No soil.
As for balancing ammonia and nitrates, thats more scientific then i get into it. LOL Interesting that there is a ratio for it. I didnt know that.
Leaf temperature. Spot on. this is why you may see a infrared thermometer in my grow. Checking the leaf temp vs air temp as it relates to humidity. When figuring out your VPD this is important to adjust the leaf temp vs the air temp. Pulse pro has an adjustment on their sheets just for this. Can move up or down by 1° increments. Its also good too measure the buds temp as well. I have been doing this only for the last year.
His whole conversation on darkness is spot on. No energy, no growth. I tell people this, chop at the end of your dark cycle. Spot on.
Pretty common knowledge on flushing as well. He also nailed it on chlorophyll. 2 days and the chlorophyll is degrading. This is why most growers are looking to get that dry in a week.
His bit on DLI was way more than most home growers will ever need. But in a big facility, monitoring this can increase your profit margins. As he said, hitting 60 moles takes a shit ton of light. Not worth sweating. Get a good light. 12/12 and you will be fine. Keep your ppfd between 400-500 during veg and around 1k during bloom.
I read that study on sunrise and sunsets. No need. Cannabis is a fast growing plant and does not need "ramp up time".
UVB is developing.
Silica. Actually Dr Bruce is the reason I use vermiculite in my grows. For the silica. This is also why most of these organic mixes have rock dust in them. To increase the silica. Silica is very unappreciated.
At the end when he was talking about advances and working with breeders. This is part of why I am here. I have always believed that working with a breeder and breeding based on environment, light, and media. Each of those can effect how a cultivar behaves.
So our first section he's talking about composted manure and phosphorus. He's right. You run any soil test on organics that has been heavily amended with composted animal manure you will find it high in phosphorus. This is why I do not run a worm bin or use animal products in general and instead using green manures like clover. He then goes on to say that adding nutrients to soil is hard on the environment. He's not wrong in this. Some places dont harvest their peat moss correctly messing up peat bogs. Mining minerals out the earth requires equipment that isnt exactly environmental friendly. Its not a wrong statement just one that has Far reaching implications. IE dumping large volumes of organic amendments on top of soil. Or mixing way more than you need in "super soils". This is why you will see lots of organic guys saying "less is more". Application rates are normally way higher then needed. Even with Synthetics. This is why all the hydro guys and bottle guys will tell you to start at quarter or even 1/8th strength.
He is spot on with the next section of misinformation of synthetic nutrients. I run a very clean organic beds. But if it ever came up and for some reason i need some quick nitrogen, I wouldn't shy away one bit at using a good quality "veg" nutrient at a very lose dose. Or if i out grew my container and needed to use some sythetic nutrients at the end. Its not going to "nuke" your microbes.
Organics are better terps imo cause the soil is a good buffer for all nutrients. Its hard to quantify. Hes not wrong. Especially when were talking about cultivars that are not stable. You would need to grow the exact same plant for years to learn exactly how to stress it to get the terpene profiles. And that's once you got stable genetics.
Compost teas fall into this as well. No real provable scientific data on how well they work or if they do.
When hes talking about precision stress he's dead on. Stress cause a protection response from the plant. Now I wouldn't do any of the bro science ive heard on this (stem stripping or nail through the stalk). As far as im concerned the best way to cause this precision stress is through UVB. But even that has not proven out or is Cultivar spacific. I want to try it out. I plan on getting a couple of UVBs to throw above my beds.
Synthetic nutrients over 2000 PPM that are very high in sodium can have a impact on microbes. Chances are you will kill your plant before you kill the microbes. When he says to use sugar and put it on the top the microbes will go nuts. Use molasses.
Soilless vs soil. Both of my beds are soilless pots. I use peat moss, perlite, vermiculite, and compost. No soil.
As for balancing ammonia and nitrates, thats more scientific then i get into it. LOL Interesting that there is a ratio for it. I didnt know that.
Leaf temperature. Spot on. this is why you may see a infrared thermometer in my grow. Checking the leaf temp vs air temp as it relates to humidity. When figuring out your VPD this is important to adjust the leaf temp vs the air temp. Pulse pro has an adjustment on their sheets just for this. Can move up or down by 1° increments. Its also good too measure the buds temp as well. I have been doing this only for the last year.
His whole conversation on darkness is spot on. No energy, no growth. I tell people this, chop at the end of your dark cycle. Spot on.
Pretty common knowledge on flushing as well. He also nailed it on chlorophyll. 2 days and the chlorophyll is degrading. This is why most growers are looking to get that dry in a week.
His bit on DLI was way more than most home growers will ever need. But in a big facility, monitoring this can increase your profit margins. As he said, hitting 60 moles takes a shit ton of light. Not worth sweating. Get a good light. 12/12 and you will be fine. Keep your ppfd between 400-500 during veg and around 1k during bloom.
I read that study on sunrise and sunsets. No need. Cannabis is a fast growing plant and does not need "ramp up time".
UVB is developing.
Silica. Actually Dr Bruce is the reason I use vermiculite in my grows. For the silica. This is also why most of these organic mixes have rock dust in them. To increase the silica. Silica is very unappreciated.
At the end when he was talking about advances and working with breeders. This is part of why I am here. I have always believed that working with a breeder and breeding based on environment, light, and media. Each of those can effect how a cultivar behaves.
H.A.F.
a.k.a. Rusty Nails
@J.James got me into organic stuff, and I had tons of questions and could not imagine not adding calmag every watering - and not pH-ing anything at all. I was definitely a skeptic.
The game changer was getting the "artisan blend take-n-bake" kit from build-a-soil. For $300 it had everything you need for 70 gallons of primo soil except the actual worms. I bought an indoor worm bin at the same time and by the time the soil had it's month of "cooking" (resting and drying out...) I had my first batch of fresh worm castings and some worms for each pot.
A 2.5g bag (12qt) of happy frog costs about $20. It was the simple per-gallon cost advantage that made me take the initial investment.
PadawanWarrior
Banned
Hell ya man. My basement is full of BAS shit. I started with straight FFOF at first, but I've added tons of other things. I knew it was gonna be a challenge starting out with the no-till mentality, and I wasn't wrong. But I'm learning constantly, and am always trying new things.
Never had any burning with my bat guano's, but I have with the seabird guano for instance. I precook top dressing sometimes. And that stuff actually can get hot to the touch depending on what you use. I've measured like 106 degrees F before, but it can get hotter I'm sure.
If it's something that I know gets hot like that, is when I pre-cook it for a few days until it cools down.
H.A.F.
a.k.a. Rusty Nails
I had already shifted to 'organic'-ish using the happy frog top dressings as my only nutes. Still added calmag, pH-d the water etc. but it was a transition. I had mushrooms growing out of the bottom of the pots, and the plants were healthier and less effort.