State of LEDs, OSRAM, SAMSUNG, CREE, PHILIPS, ETC

Nyaga

Junior Soil Food Web Consultant
The spyder is 660w the hlg600 is 600w.. the hlg uses samsung diodes (spydr are quality Osram's) so the umols will be virtually identical. If you want to pay over twice as much for similar results, more power to you champ!
Actually, Fluence Bio-engineering is a division of OSRAM, they started off with using OSRAM diodes and a meanwell driver. It is common knowledge for the past 2 years for people that have been following the industry with a close eye that Fluence moved away from meanwell driver and now using a different driver (Cheaper more efficient), and they switched their diodes to Samsung full spectrum diodes and OSRAM reds.

Samsung's LM301B is just better than anything osram can offer currently in full spectrum for efficiency and efficacy.

2019 is a different year for horticulture and the big companies like samsung, osram, cree, philips luminus, all see the financial potential for developing diodes for horticulture. They will be going in hard competing to bring the best price to performance diodes, kind of what happened to the harddrive industry when SSDs was first introduced. Research and development for horticulture diodes is moving at a rapid pace.

Simply don't believe the market hype.
No "branding" really have such a thing as "quality" diodes. Diodes are binned like CPUs in a sealed testing sphere which reflects 99.9% of light wavelengths. Then depending on their binned catagory for different light temperatures and spectrum out, as well as power usage they are moved to different "categories"

2700k, 3500k, 4000k etc. Even at these color temperatures you have CRI ratings 80, 90 etc (which is closest true to how colour is perceived of an object it shines on) CRI ratings is important for photographers and videographers because it makes a day and night different which combination of lighting you use with a certain CRI rating and colour temperature.)

Indoor Horticulture with LEDs just happened to be people that experimented with different diodes on the market and got different results and built lights accordingly. There was NO LED specifically developed for horticulture until 2018. All the previous LEDs lights just happened, through trial and error, to be diodes suitable for growing indoors that is more efficient than HPS, CMH etc because LEDs can be developed to target specific light wavelengths which is required for photosynthesis with a combination of different colour temperatures.

If you want to do proper DIY with diodes, do a little research on which diodes you want to use as they are wallet dependent, some are easier to get a hold of than others, even the older samsung lm561c S6 binned diodes is extremely cheap now and comes in different colour temperatures at different wavelength.
2700k (flower)
3000k,3500k (full cycle veg to flower)
4000k and up (veg)

for drivers (power supplies) bigger than 240 watts i would recommend a inventronics driver for the following reasons.
Cheaper than meanwell,
becomes way more efficient than meanwell at higher wattages
can do everything meanwell drivers do in most cases better and cheaper
fluence uses inventronics driver and not meanwell, they dropped meanwell years ago because meanwell had a monopoly on the market and charged exhorbant prices.

Basically what I'm getting at with this post. I really want peeps to dig deep into these topics and do research the information is there. If you can access the internet you have access to the same information I and many other researchers have. Learn about it with passion to understand. No one can bullshit you if you have the same or more knowledge.

I in no means am bashing anyone or any company in this post, it is open knowledge.

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he will have food for the rest of his life.
 

Nyaga

Junior Soil Food Web Consultant
Lets,see your,setup?
What song think of the new r spec qb288 with osram reds?
R Spec QB288 is literally the same LED diode choices as Fluence, only difference is the one is a quantum board and the other is a Bars. So form factor and nothing else.

Samsung LM301b (General Mid-power) diodes: https://www.samsung.com/led/lighting/mid-power-leds/3030-leds/lm301b/

You can find out more about Samsung's Horticulture diodes here:

https://www.samsung.com/led/lighting/applications/horticulture-lighting/

The Samsung LM301H is almost exactly the same as the samsung LM301b, the only difference is the LM301H has a protective layer over the diode which protects the diode from sulphurization (the term I used may be under correction), essentially it is to slow down the deterioration of the diode in a damp/humid environment. Electrical efficiency is also improved by 10% or less from the LM301b, but costs 20% more

OSRAM diodes first used was the LM80 and LM79 Diodes which was when osram started experimenting with them for horticulture but only because of word of mouth that people was using them to build Grow LEDs, then Fluence bio-engineering was fully established as their "Horticulture Wing" for osram,

R&D for horticulture was obviously way before 2010 but 2010 was really the year LEDs started taking off for horticulture and it was off to the races between All these big companies like samsung, cree, philips, osram went balls deep into R&D for horticulture LEDs

Anyways back to R Spec QB288 they;ll be using 660nm hyper red and 630 red diodes which is the OSRAM DURIUS S5 family of General Mid-Power diodes) and the OSLON and OSCONIQ Hyper Red 660nm diodes.

More info on the OSRAM Diodes http://bit.ly/2WkhYmI

https://apps.osram-os.com/Horticulture/

All these companies should thank the cannabis industry for basically being the driving force behind R&D for better LED powered grow lights. We want to be able to grow more with less energy. HPS is DEAD CMH, is Dead as we approaching over 3 μmol/j efficacy for LEDs which is ridiculously efficient but that is mostly for the Red/Hyper red wavelengths but getting close to 3 μmol/j
efficacy for mid wavelengths 420-480nm which is great.


You see the only reason LED builders have been holding off from add that extra 660nm hyper-red diodes in the past is because the specific hyper-red 658-668nm diodes actually had a pretty high failure rate compared to normal full spectrum diodes. The reason they are choosing OSRAM's hyper red diodes is because between all manufacturers the efficacy is pretty similar across the board for all manufacturers, OSRAM currently has thee most reliable 660nm hyper-red diodes on the market so far for 2019. Do not that the 660nm diodes still has a higher change of failure than standard full spectrum.

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with the QB288 V1, or QB288 V2 Quantum boards, you really don't have to have the R Spec for an extra few hundred dollars. Problem is manufacturers are pricing these diodes so high because of the commercial buying power in the cannabis industry. Save money can get a few more V1's and V2's instead of getting R-Spec. The R-Spec price will drop when new diodes released again. The diodes should last you 3, 4, 5, 6 years.

I think this is really important guys, freedom of information for hobbyists, we should be lobbying for us and not commercial, we should be helping the small growers know how everything works. From light to soil to water.

The build I have is irrelevant to the thread in this point in time :)
 

badmofo529

Insanely Active Member
I gotta do some more digging but those inventronics drivers seem under rated as fuck. The 200w I looked at seemed closer to 300w and the 600w closer to 750w. I know some of the meanwells can do a decent amount over rated but damn...

I looked into them a while ago but stopped because I couldn't really find anywhere to buy them, but it looks like they are more available now
 

TerpyTyrone

LED Recruiter
R Spec QB288 is literally the same LED diode choices as Fluence, only difference is the one is a quantum board and the other is a Bars. So form factor and nothing else.

Samsung LM301b (General Mid-power) diodes: https://www.samsung.com/led/lighting/mid-power-leds/3030-leds/lm301b/

You can find out more about Samsung's Horticulture diodes here:

https://www.samsung.com/led/lighting/applications/horticulture-lighting/

The Samsung LM301H is almost exactly the same as the samsung LM301b, the only difference is the LM301H has a protective layer over the diode which protects the diode from sulphurization (the term I used may be under correction), essentially it is to slow down the deterioration of the diode in a damp/humid environment. Electrical efficiency is also improved by 10% or less from the LM301b, but costs 20% more

OSRAM diodes first used was the LM80 and LM79 Diodes which was when osram started experimenting with them for horticulture but only because of word of mouth that people was using them to build Grow LEDs, then Fluence bio-engineering was fully established as their "Horticulture Wing" for osram,

R&D for horticulture was obviously way before 2010 but 2010 was really the year LEDs started taking off for horticulture and it was off to the races between All these big companies like samsung, cree, philips, osram went balls deep into R&D for horticulture LEDs

Anyways back to R Spec QB288 they;ll be using 660nm hyper red and 630 red diodes which is the OSRAM DURIUS S5 family of General Mid-Power diodes) and the OSLON and OSCONIQ Hyper Red 660nm diodes.

More info on the OSRAM Diodes http://bit.ly/2WkhYmI

https://apps.osram-os.com/Horticulture/

All these companies should thank the cannabis industry for basically being the driving force behind R&D for better LED powered grow lights. We want to be able to grow more with less energy. HPS is DEAD CMH, is Dead as we approaching over 3 μmol/j efficacy for LEDs which is ridiculously efficient but that is mostly for the Red/Hyper red wavelengths but getting close to 3 μmol/j
efficacy for mid wavelengths 420-480nm which is great.


You see the only reason LED builders have been holding off from add that extra 660nm hyper-red diodes in the past is because the specific hyper-red 658-668nm diodes actually had a pretty high failure rate compared to normal full spectrum diodes. The reason they are choosing OSRAM's hyper red diodes is because between all manufacturers the efficacy is pretty similar across the board for all manufacturers, OSRAM currently has thee most reliable 660nm hyper-red diodes on the market so far for 2019. Do not that the 660nm diodes still has a higher change of failure than standard full spectrum.

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with the QB288 V1, or QB288 V2 Quantum boards, you really don't have to have the R Spec for an extra few hundred dollars. Problem is manufacturers are pricing these diodes so high because of the commercial buying power in the cannabis industry. Save money can get a few more V1's and V2's instead of getting R-Spec. The R-Spec price will drop when new diodes released again. The diodes should last you 3, 4, 5, 6 years.

I think this is really important guys, freedom of information for hobbyists, we should be lobbying for us and not commercial, we should be helping the small growers know how everything works. From light to soil to water.

The build I have is irrelevant to the thread in this point in time :)
Do u have pics? A thread?
 

NoWaistedSpace

PICK YOUR OWN
R Spec QB288 is literally the same LED diode choices as Fluence, only difference is the one is a quantum board and the other is a Bars. So form factor and nothing else.

Samsung LM301b (General Mid-power) diodes: https://www.samsung.com/led/lighting/mid-power-leds/3030-leds/lm301b/

You can find out more about Samsung's Horticulture diodes here:

https://www.samsung.com/led/lighting/applications/horticulture-lighting/

The Samsung LM301H is almost exactly the same as the samsung LM301b, the only difference is the LM301H has a protective layer over the diode which protects the diode from sulphurization (the term I used may be under correction), essentially it is to slow down the deterioration of the diode in a damp/humid environment. Electrical efficiency is also improved by 10% or less from the LM301b, but costs 20% more

OSRAM diodes first used was the LM80 and LM79 Diodes which was when osram started experimenting with them for horticulture but only because of word of mouth that people was using them to build Grow LEDs, then Fluence bio-engineering was fully established as their "Horticulture Wing" for osram,

R&D for horticulture was obviously way before 2010 but 2010 was really the year LEDs started taking off for horticulture and it was off to the races between All these big companies like samsung, cree, philips, osram went balls deep into R&D for horticulture LEDs

Anyways back to R Spec QB288 they;ll be using 660nm hyper red and 630 red diodes which is the OSRAM DURIUS S5 family of General Mid-Power diodes) and the OSLON and OSCONIQ Hyper Red 660nm diodes.

More info on the OSRAM Diodes http://bit.ly/2WkhYmI

https://apps.osram-os.com/Horticulture/

All these companies should thank the cannabis industry for basically being the driving force behind R&D for better LED powered grow lights. We want to be able to grow more with less energy. HPS is DEAD CMH, is Dead as we approaching over 3 μmol/j efficacy for LEDs which is ridiculously efficient but that is mostly for the Red/Hyper red wavelengths but getting close to 3 μmol/j
efficacy for mid wavelengths 420-480nm which is great.


You see the only reason LED builders have been holding off from add that extra 660nm hyper-red diodes in the past is because the specific hyper-red 658-668nm diodes actually had a pretty high failure rate compared to normal full spectrum diodes. The reason they are choosing OSRAM's hyper red diodes is because between all manufacturers the efficacy is pretty similar across the board for all manufacturers, OSRAM currently has thee most reliable 660nm hyper-red diodes on the market so far for 2019. Do not that the 660nm diodes still has a higher change of failure than standard full spectrum.

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with the QB288 V1, or QB288 V2 Quantum boards, you really don't have to have the R Spec for an extra few hundred dollars. Problem is manufacturers are pricing these diodes so high because of the commercial buying power in the cannabis industry. Save money can get a few more V1's and V2's instead of getting R-Spec. The R-Spec price will drop when new diodes released again. The diodes should last you 3, 4, 5, 6 years.

I think this is really important guys, freedom of information for hobbyists, we should be lobbying for us and not commercial, we should be helping the small growers know how everything works. From light to soil to water.

The build I have is irrelevant to the thread in this point in time :)
I'm very happy with my 50+ Vero 29's run in parallel into series. Very efficient and very little heat. I have QB's also. They are equal to the Veros set up my way. I cover a hell of a lot more space. But to each his/her own. lol
If I had to choose, it would be Growmau5's Logic Puck for the win.
 

Nyaga

Junior Soil Food Web Consultant
I'm very happy with my 50+ Vero 29's run in parallel into series. Very efficient and very little heat. I have QB's also. They are equal to the Veros set up my way. I cover a hell of a lot more space. But to each his/her own. lol
If I had to choose, it would be Growmau5's Logic Puck for the win.
Yeah if you follow GrowMau5's podcasts, they talk about all this info as well.
 

NoWaistedSpace

PICK YOUR OWN
He is who I learned from. Been a LED DIY'er going on 4 years now. And 4 years later, all my Vero 29 Gen 3's 2700K- 4000K's are all still working and I have only had 1 Meanwell driver crap out.
There is really no reason to buy all the new tech each year. My COB's running 2700-4000K together are doing a fantastic job. I set my lights on about 35-50 watts about 3 ft and let my plants get used to the light intensity. Then I start adding more intensity.
If I am growing big bushes, I have a totally different set up. All my lights are interchangeable.
Makes things so much easier if you are moving things around, experimenting with better ways of coverage.
Veros are built very well. I run passive heatsinks, so no motors running or mini fans. Just my circulation fans. My heatsinks hardly ever get above 100 degrees F. I have all the power I will ever need in a grow system. All with the turn of a screw driver with the built in potentiometers.
 

ChiefRunningPhist

Drunk on Knowledge
inventronics drivers also come with 5, 7, 10 year warranties, they are programmable and dimmable as well (model dependent). really meanwell is nothing special they are just well branded thats all.
The effeciencies look the same to me unless I'm not looking at the right Inventronics drivers?

Also could you throw up some links for the Inventronics drivers? I found some on eBay, but they look like the same prices as MW.

Here's some MW driver data

Some CV effeciencies...
CRF_CV_ EFFICIENCY_1.0.png

Some CC effeciencies...
CRF_CC_EFFECIENCY_1.0.png

Some abbreviated CV data sheets...
CRF_CV_DATASHTS_1.1.png
 

ChiefRunningPhist

Drunk on Knowledge
R Spec QB288 is literally the same LED diode choices as Fluence, only difference is the one is a quantum board and the other is a Bars. So form factor and nothing else.

Samsung LM301b (General Mid-power) diodes: https://www.samsung.com/led/lighting/mid-power-leds/3030-leds/lm301b/

You can find out more about Samsung's Horticulture diodes here:

https://www.samsung.com/led/lighting/applications/horticulture-lighting/

The Samsung LM301H is almost exactly the same as the samsung LM301b, the only difference is the LM301H has a protective layer over the diode which protects the diode from sulphurization (the term I used may be under correction), essentially it is to slow down the deterioration of the diode in a damp/humid environment. Electrical efficiency is also improved by 10% or less from the LM301b, but costs 20% more

OSRAM diodes first used was the LM80 and LM79 Diodes which was when osram started experimenting with them for horticulture but only because of word of mouth that people was using them to build Grow LEDs, then Fluence bio-engineering was fully established as their "Horticulture Wing" for osram,

R&D for horticulture was obviously way before 2010 but 2010 was really the year LEDs started taking off for horticulture and it was off to the races between All these big companies like samsung, cree, philips, osram went balls deep into R&D for horticulture LEDs

Anyways back to R Spec QB288 they;ll be using 660nm hyper red and 630 red diodes which is the OSRAM DURIUS S5 family of General Mid-Power diodes) and the OSLON and OSCONIQ Hyper Red 660nm diodes.

More info on the OSRAM Diodes http://bit.ly/2WkhYmI

https://apps.osram-os.com/Horticulture/

All these companies should thank the cannabis industry for basically being the driving force behind R&D for better LED powered grow lights. We want to be able to grow more with less energy. HPS is DEAD CMH, is Dead as we approaching over 3 μmol/j efficacy for LEDs which is ridiculously efficient but that is mostly for the Red/Hyper red wavelengths but getting close to 3 μmol/j
efficacy for mid wavelengths 420-480nm which is great.


You see the only reason LED builders have been holding off from add that extra 660nm hyper-red diodes in the past is because the specific hyper-red 658-668nm diodes actually had a pretty high failure rate compared to normal full spectrum diodes. The reason they are choosing OSRAM's hyper red diodes is because between all manufacturers the efficacy is pretty similar across the board for all manufacturers, OSRAM currently has thee most reliable 660nm hyper-red diodes on the market so far for 2019. Do not that the 660nm diodes still has a higher change of failure than standard full spectrum.

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with the QB288 V1, or QB288 V2 Quantum boards, you really don't have to have the R Spec for an extra few hundred dollars. Problem is manufacturers are pricing these diodes so high because of the commercial buying power in the cannabis industry. Save money can get a few more V1's and V2's instead of getting R-Spec. The R-Spec price will drop when new diodes released again. The diodes should last you 3, 4, 5, 6 years.

I think this is really important guys, freedom of information for hobbyists, we should be lobbying for us and not commercial, we should be helping the small growers know how everything works. From light to soil to water.

The build I have is irrelevant to the thread in this point in time :)
LM301B and LM301H have the exact same electro-optical characteristics, not even better effeciency! 20% more for a different letter lol

LM301B
301bb.png 301b.png

LM301H
301hb.png 301h.png

Good posts! I'd say the effeciency you're likely to get from the wall with a high end LED is really closer to 2.5 - 2.6μmol/J. The new HLG R-SPEC was tested at 2.6μmol/J.
Screenshot_2019-06-07-08-33-45.png
 

DET—PDX

Insanely Active Member
Listened to a KIS Podcast detailing LEDs and other environmental factors. Lighting is the most important in terms of photochemical production, and LED is the most efficient. The far red wavelength is the most promising discovery in terms of efficiency and allowed growers to dim their lights 50% in comparison to colder wavelengths. They also said 1000 ppfd was the best efficiency in terms of yield per energy output. They are continuing to research the relationship between VPD and ppfd in terms of growth rate per each stage of the plant. They had found that exact clones grown under differe environmental conditions produced two completely different chemotypes as well. Meaning, Terpene production and other photochemicals like thc were totally different. This suggests producing a constant chemotype in our flowers is dependent on environment, not genetics. Lighting is KEY, and perhaps the appropriate ppfd to match said VPD is just as crucial, more research will tell. What a time to be alive and have internet.
 
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TerpyTyrone

LED Recruiter
LM301B and LM301H have the exact same electro-optical characteristics, not even better effeciency! 20% more for a different letter lol

LM301B
View attachment 9228View attachment 9227

LM301H
View attachment 9230View attachment 9229

Good posts! I'd say the effeciency you're likely to get from the wall with a high end LED is really closer to 2.5 - 2.6μmol/J. The new HLG R-SPEC was tested at 2.6μmol/J.
View attachment 9231
How do I read a vpd chart? I want to know how hard to run my qb132's?
 

DET—PDX

Insanely Active Member
How do I read a vpd chart? I want to know how hard to run my qb132's?
Look at your temperature on the far left side. Select that row. Follow that row to the right until you see a green number. Follow the green number’s column up to the Relative Humidity on top. For example, at 70F you should aim for 60-65% humidity. In flower, many growers will still keep humidity lower than the VPD chart reccomends because risking mildew isn’ worth it for most.

9383
 

ChiefRunningPhist

Drunk on Knowledge
How do I read a vpd chart? I want to know how hard to run my qb132's?
VPD is not as complicated as it sounds. You can see I've added a slice of a -1°C CTD VPD chart to my reference graphic, but essentially just keep your RH above 55 and you should be solid. The different colors are for different stages of growth, you can see the labels, but I'm not a huge VPD guy.
CRF_GROWING_1.2.png

As far as intensity for your QB132s, I'd shoot for 700+ if you're using a light meter, otherwise I'd run about 37w/ft2 and adjust hang height to 10" -16" but watch plants and adjust accordingly.
 
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NoWaistedSpace

PICK YOUR OWN
I try and stay around 60-65 humidity and under 80 degrees at "canopy" level.
Now, a couple weeks into flower , I will do a flush. After, I will drop humidity another 10% or more. I want that plant to dry out for 5 or 6 days till she starts to stress. It's about getting the plants hormones to go into full bore flowering. Some take it to 40%. If you use LED's, they are more forgiving and you can have higher humidity levels, just keep enough airflow moving. Defoliate about the same time which will help control the humidity a little better. By taking the leaves off allows more airflow inside the canopy.
 

DET—PDX

Insanely Active Member
As far as intensity for your QB132s, I'd shoot for 700+ if you're using a light meter, otherwise I'd run about 37w/ft2 and adjust hang height to 10" -16" but watch plants and adjust accordingly.
Yeah according to the Doctorate researcher I listend to, plants have been known to accept up to 1400 umol/s. Veg requirements are generally less than flower, BUT, they found that slowly increasing the light intensity to a tolerable amount in veg That your plants can tolerate thickened stalks and resulted in more biomass and phytochemicals into flower. I would keep light intensity to an amount your electric bill can afford balanced to the amount your plants can tolerate throughout the entire grow.
 
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