F1-2-3-4

Turpman

PICK YOUR OWN
Ok say you came across an older strain that you wanted to preserve/hunt/generally fuck around with.
You have 10-20 seed
What is the best way to preserve the strain?
I'm thinking popping all of them in a breeding tent and letting all males and females grow and do their thing and make a whack of seed.
Is this the way to go or would you pick out phenos you like and breed them.
And on the same topic. Does the strain change as you f1-2-3-4 it. I have herd of inbreeding but haven't done any research. Any insight will be helpful.
@HydroRed @Schwaggy P or anyone else I'm all ears.
Thnaks
 
Ok say you came across an older strain that you wanted to preserve/hunt/generally fuck around with.
You have 10-20 seed
What is the best way to preserve the strain?
I'm thinking popping all of them in a breeding tent and letting all males and females grow and do their thing and make a whack of seed.
Is this the way to go or would you pick out phenos you like and breed them.
Generally, preserving a line is achieved by open pollination of all males and females. This aims to keep the genetic potential of the line as open as possible to be able to pull the widest array of phenotypes that are still considered the strain you’d like to preserve.

The moment you start selecting phenotypes to move forward into the next generation, you’ve moved from pure preservation, into imparting your breeding preferences to the line. There is nothing necessarily wrong with this approach, especially if you only intend to generally fuck around with the line.

I think of preservation as an attempt at conservation of a genetic line and the breeder’s selection process inherent within. You’re serving a custodial function for the genetics and seek to replicate the potential of the line. If for example you’d like to preserve Deep Chunk, but only choose to use the “Green phenos”, would it be considered preservation to have excluded the “Purple phenos”? Are you conserving the line as Tom Hill bred it, or have you now narrowed the genetic potential to favor the pheno, you’ve deemed best? Again, there is nothing wrong with this, just trying to differentiate preservation vs. breeding.

You’re best route will depend on what you’re trying to accomplish. If you’d like a bigger population of this line’s seeds to hunt, or would like to keep the line going as a service to the community for other potential breeding projects, I would open pollinate. If you want a killer representative pheno of the strain that fits your growing/smoking, then be more selective.

I can think of a few approaches to consider:
  • Open pollinating all of the males/females and keeping the harvested seeds separated by female phenotype – this allows you to at least control which female seeds you select to pop while still having the other phenos’ open pollinated seeds.
  • Flowering the males separately from the females, collecting/mixing their pollen, and dusting single branches of each female. This will allow you to have open pollinated seeds while keeping most of the females as sensi bud to give you an opportunity to smoke/assess which female phenos are superior. Like the above approach, you get to have a fully open pollinated population, but with better info about which female pheno best suites your taste since you get to see their unseeded growth and smoke test.
  • Be more discerning about which male plants you use, cull any that seem inferior or select one male that best represents the line and use the single branch method. This is less preservation and more breeding as you’re now narrowing the gene pool, but is only restricting the male side of the equation.
And on the same topic. Does the strain change as you f1-2-3-4 it. I have herd of inbreeding but haven't done any research. Any insight will be helpful.
I wouldn’t say the strain necessarily changes, but it will converge on a specific set of traits based on what you select moving forward. You instinctively understood this when you asked if the best way to preserve is to open pollinate. Since your goal is to preserve the greatest range of expressions this strain offers, you keep the population as large as possible to avoid bottlenecking the genetic potential.

Let’s assume your strain throws 2 main phenos: one tall long flowering pheno and one short fast flowering pheno. If you select only the short fast flowering phenotypes to make seeds, your resulting plants will skew far more towards the short/fast expressions. It’s still the same strain; you’ve just greatly reduced the occurrence of tall/slow phenos of that strain. This isn’t really “changing” the strain so much as narrowing the possible expressions.

Preservation seeks to maintain the widest potential for genetic expressions of a strain. In contrast, inbreeding seeks to lock down a specific genetic expression of a strain.

Inbreeding usually refers to either successive: filial breeding (sister x brother), self-pollination, or backcrossing (parent x progeny). This takes many generations with the goal of having seeds act like clones, such that every plant pops out practically identical.

Having a firm understanding of what you’d like to achieve can help guide you on which route to take.
 

Old ST1R

Grow Yer Own Stone
View attachment 36669
I'd open pollinate them if preservation is the goal. Keep more variation alive.
Ditto. I’m going to open pollinate some Bodega Bubblegum F2’s gifted to me by @SCJedi to have some F3’s.

I read somewhere that by the time you get to F7’s, there’s been enough “mixing” for the plant to be considered its own strain. Someone please correct me if this is wrong.

My long term plan is to get to F7’s with the BB.
 

H.A.F.

a.k.a. Rusty Nails
Ditto. I’m going to open pollinate some Bodega Bubblegum F2’s gifted to me by @SCJedi to have some F3’s.

I read somewhere that by the time you get to F7’s, there’s been enough “mixing” for the plant to be considered its own strain. Someone please correct me if this is wrong.

My long term plan is to get to F7’s with the BB.
Disclaimer - Not a breeder - I would check a science book on that one . That is pure genetics and math regardless of what plant you are growing. The theory is that al the plants continually interbreeding will eventually gather some part of all the traits and most will be similar to each other in most respects.
 

SCJedi

Synergist
Ok say you came across an older strain that you wanted to preserve/hunt/generally fuck around with.
You have 10-20 seed
What is the best way to preserve the strain?
I'm thinking popping all of them in a breeding tent and letting all males and females grow and do their thing and make a whack of seed.
Is this the way to go or would you pick out phenos you like and breed them.
And on the same topic. Does the strain change as you f1-2-3-4 it. I have herd of inbreeding but haven't done any research. Any insight will be helpful.
@HydroRed @Schwaggy P or anyone else I'm all ears.
Thnaks
This is close to what happens in the wild, the early flowering male gets the girl. If you want to make it a true mix then keep the boys away from the girls, collect ALL pollen and mix it up, then dust it all over the ladies. You will find that male flowers often open when the females are not at their peak of reception anyway.
 

SCJedi

Synergist
Ditto. I’m going to open pollinate some Bodega Bubblegum F2’s gifted to me by @SCJedi to have some F3’s.

I read somewhere that by the time you get to F7’s, there’s been enough “mixing” for the plant to be considered its own strain. Someone please correct me if this is wrong.

My long term plan is to get to F7’s with the BB.
PM Sent
 

Hydro

PICK YOUR OWN
Schwaggy said it waaaay better than I ever could have lol
X2 on the open pollenation if you are working toward a "preservation" and to leave the gene pool as large as possible. Then you can take what you choose to refine in the line and still have it be open for others to work the line as they feel.
 

Oreguhnism

Really Active Member
Skunk is one of the most inbred strains out there. In 2018, they found 3! `novel duplicate synthases which hadnt been identified in seperate clones.

I have heard between 10 to 30 gens makes up skunk and it still isnt 100% homogenous, that is how much variety this plant has!
......... It (cannabis in general) can breed across a wide range of genotypes, someone once compared it to humans having the ability to breed to other or most primates in terms of diversity......not just only our species.
 
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beefterpene

Active Member
Disclaimer - Not a breeder - I would check a science book on that one . That is pure genetics and math regardless of what plant you are growing. The theory is that al the plants continually interbreeding will eventually gather some part of all the traits and most will be similar to each other in most respects.
I have to disagree, a landrace will show great genetic diversity, and the beauty about nature is that environment can effect phenotypical expression as well. These fields of landrace are not discerning or making and selection choices and the bulk of the genetic make up is expressed in these fields, no human hand guiding the plants, no selections only an orgy and the freaks and mutants are welcome. Of course the first to flower gets to live on, but so doesthe late flower. Yes they all share traits but are in no way unified.
 

beefterpene

Active Member
Ok say you came across an older strain that you wanted to preserve/hunt/generally fuck around with.
You have 10-20 seed
What is the best way to preserve the strain?
I'm thinking popping all of them in a breeding tent and letting all males and females grow and do their thing and make a whack of seed.
Is this the way to go or would you pick out phenos you like and breed them.
And on the same topic. Does the strain change as you f1-2-3-4 it. I have herd of inbreeding but haven't done any research. Any insight will be helpful.
@HydroRed @Schwaggy P or anyone else I'm all ears.
Thnaks
I would keep the populus intact unless there are terrible traits glaring at you.

It's ok to bottleneck as well btw.

If you are starting with F2 stock to begin with. Open pollinating an F2 will undoubtedly create more genetic diversity as selecting a hunted Male and Female.

Generally speaking, selectively bred you will see most genetic variation in the F2 and F3 generations due to recombination.

Open pollination will always net more expressions than selective breeding, especially in earlier generations.
 

H.A.F.

a.k.a. Rusty Nails
I have to disagree, a landrace will show great genetic diversity, and the beauty about nature is that environment can effect phenotypical expression as well. These fields of landrace are not discerning or making and selection choices and the bulk of the genetic make up is expressed in these fields, no human hand guiding the plants, no selections only an orgy and the freaks and mutants are welcome. Of course the first to flower gets to live on, but so doesthe late flower. Yes they all share traits but are in no way unified.
He was talking about a closed environment - mass pollination - repeatedly, not nature.
 

beefterpene

Active Member
He was talking about a closed environment - mass pollination - repeatedly, not nature.
I understood wrong my bad.

By F7 if selectively bred you encroach upon IBL territory. But this is establishing pedigree. Planned bottle necked filial generations.

F7 open pollination will more like still show huge variation even in a smallerpopulation.

Hell rigourus backcrossing still requires intense selection to bottleneck. Prime example mycoteks GG4bx7 that throws 10 phenos and has the same common parent in the BX for 7 generations.

Selfing is about the most intense inbreeding you can do and s1 are all over the place.

Just food for thought.

I do apologize for my misunderstanding. I read big statements with little info so I filled in the blanks.

I was just trying to predicate.
 
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